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Leadership
#11
I agree with previous statements in that the leadership is not active. I believe that they should split off from creative, and it should become it's own entity under the leadership of Tommy and other admins, along with MrAnon as developer.
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#12
true af period
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#13
(05-May-2020, 08:41 PM)T1ceT1ceBaby Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 07:22 PM)SirBunalot Wrote: To address everything that has been said here:

The leadership team has always been very consistent with what we expect in terms of player behaviour, staff expectations and future progress.
A network wide “punishment chart” has been implemented for a long time to try to get staff to be more consistent with punishments, and we have been pushing staff to follow it in hopes of making things fairer for everyone and more transparent. Unfortunately that hasn’t always been the case and improvements are always being made.

If players feel that they have been unfairly banned by a member of the creative staff, that player has a right to appeal and the NAs will address it. Whether that be by explaining the reason for the ban in more depth or, if we feel the ban wasn’t just, explaining to the creative staff why we feel why the ban shouldn’t of happened.

Also, Tommys is the HA of creative and therefore part of the Leadership team and he has been doing a fantastic job. We fully appreciate everything he is doing in moving creative forward.
As for the NAs not “playing” on creative, just because we not always on the server, that doesn’t mean we are not monitoring what is going on and in constant interaction with both staff and players.

As for “the leadership focuses on towny”, that couldn’t be further from the truth. Towny staff are very self sufficient and rarely need leadership intervention of any sort.

I hope that addresses your concerns and I’m open to speak more about this if you have any more question.
Its good that there is a "punishment chart" but why isn't it being used correctly and why can't we the players see it? I have noticed that punishments aren't being handled correctly and or fairly. Recently a player got banned for 14 days for continuously bringing up a girl player's personal life and experieces that had. he got muted and everything and he did not change. He brought it up after all the punishments and only got banned 14 days. I believe that staff should have personal voice calls with players that don't change after a punishment. I have also noticed that bans aren't given out fairly, he got banned for 30 days and now Leadership is trying to unban him? How does this work, because it obviously is a fair ban and should be treated like jeters ban. 

I also would like to propose an idea I had, what if the Leadership grabs 2 players (Preferably me and Spits), all staff, devs and leadership (MrAnonymous included) so we could talk it out and look for a solution. I believe that the opinion of the players are as important as the opinion of Leadership and Staff. Please DM me on discord so we could work something out. Discord : Tice#3754

I'm just going to answer the punishment table issue.

The punishment table is just there to act as a guideline to deal with rule breakers. It is not disclosed to players or should not be disclosed to players to avoid this kind of issues. 
Not everything is black and whit and falls into one of the punisments we've set. That's why it is so hard to apply same punishment to two different players, because most likely reality is very different in each ocasion. 

Players should follow the rules they accept when they join the server and let staff deal with the punishment. Like it's been mentioned earlier, if a player finds his punishment to be unfair, he can apply on the forums and we will take a look at it. 

I hope this clarifies the punishment table issue.

-Saber
[Image: 3vbQi.gif]
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#14
(05-May-2020, 09:08 PM)Saabertooth Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 08:41 PM)T1ceT1ceBaby Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 07:22 PM)SirBunalot Wrote: To address everything that has been said here:

The leadership team has always been very consistent with what we expect in terms of player behaviour, staff expectations and future progress.
A network wide “punishment chart” has been implemented for a long time to try to get staff to be more consistent with punishments, and we have been pushing staff to follow it in hopes of making things fairer for everyone and more transparent. Unfortunately that hasn’t always been the case and improvements are always being made.

If players feel that they have been unfairly banned by a member of the creative staff, that player has a right to appeal and the NAs will address it. Whether that be by explaining the reason for the ban in more depth or, if we feel the ban wasn’t just, explaining to the creative staff why we feel why the ban shouldn’t of happened.

Also, Tommys is the HA of creative and therefore part of the Leadership team and he has been doing a fantastic job. We fully appreciate everything he is doing in moving creative forward.
As for the NAs not “playing” on creative, just because we not always on the server, that doesn’t mean we are not monitoring what is going on and in constant interaction with both staff and players.

As for “the leadership focuses on towny”, that couldn’t be further from the truth. Towny staff are very self sufficient and rarely need leadership intervention of any sort.

I hope that addresses your concerns and I’m open to speak more about this if you have any more question.
Its good that there is a "punishment chart" but why isn't it being used correctly and why can't we the players see it? I have noticed that punishments aren't being handled correctly and or fairly. Recently a player got banned for 14 days for continuously bringing up a girl player's personal life and experieces that had. he got muted and everything and he did not change. He brought it up after all the punishments and only got banned 14 days. I believe that staff should have personal voice calls with players that don't change after a punishment. I have also noticed that bans aren't given out fairly, he got banned for 30 days and now Leadership is trying to unban him? How does this work, because it obviously is a fair ban and should be treated like jeters ban. 

I also would like to propose an idea I had, what if the Leadership grabs 2 players (Preferably me and Spits), all staff, devs and leadership (MrAnonymous included) so we could talk it out and look for a solution. I believe that the opinion of the players are as important as the opinion of Leadership and Staff. Please DM me on discord so we could work something out. Discord : Tice#3754

I'm just going to answer the punishment table issue.

The punishment table is just there to act as a guideline to deal with rule breakers. It is not disclosed to players or should not be disclosed to players to avoid this kind of issues. 
Not everything is black and whit and falls into one of the punisments we've set. That's why it is so hard to apply same punishment to two different players, because most likely reality is very different in each ocasion. 

Players should follow the rules they accept when they join the server and let staff deal with the punishment. Like it's been mentioned earlier, if a player finds his punishment to be unfair, he can apply on the forums and we will take a look at it. 

I hope this clarifies the punishment table issue.

-Saber

Could I know what you think about the idea I proposed, I would really like to know more about what the Leadership thinks about the situation and what we could do to change people when they get punished instead of them not caring.
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#15
(05-May-2020, 09:12 PM)T1ceT1ceBaby Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 09:08 PM)Saabertooth Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 08:41 PM)T1ceT1ceBaby Wrote:
(05-May-2020, 07:22 PM)SirBunalot Wrote: To address everything that has been said here:

The leadership team has always been very consistent with what we expect in terms of player behaviour, staff expectations and future progress.
A network wide “punishment chart” has been implemented for a long time to try to get staff to be more consistent with punishments, and we have been pushing staff to follow it in hopes of making things fairer for everyone and more transparent. Unfortunately that hasn’t always been the case and improvements are always being made.

If players feel that they have been unfairly banned by a member of the creative staff, that player has a right to appeal and the NAs will address it. Whether that be by explaining the reason for the ban in more depth or, if we feel the ban wasn’t just, explaining to the creative staff why we feel why the ban shouldn’t of happened.

Also, Tommys is the HA of creative and therefore part of the Leadership team and he has been doing a fantastic job. We fully appreciate everything he is doing in moving creative forward.
As for the NAs not “playing” on creative, just because we not always on the server, that doesn’t mean we are not monitoring what is going on and in constant interaction with both staff and players.

As for “the leadership focuses on towny”, that couldn’t be further from the truth. Towny staff are very self sufficient and rarely need leadership intervention of any sort.

I hope that addresses your concerns and I’m open to speak more about this if you have any more question.
Its good that there is a "punishment chart" but why isn't it being used correctly and why can't we the players see it? I have noticed that punishments aren't being handled correctly and or fairly. Recently a player got banned for 14 days for continuously bringing up a girl player's personal life and experieces that had. he got muted and everything and he did not change. He brought it up after all the punishments and only got banned 14 days. I believe that staff should have personal voice calls with players that don't change after a punishment. I have also noticed that bans aren't given out fairly, he got banned for 30 days and now Leadership is trying to unban him? How does this work, because it obviously is a fair ban and should be treated like jeters ban. 

I also would like to propose an idea I had, what if the Leadership grabs 2 players (Preferably me and Spits), all staff, devs and leadership (MrAnonymous included) so we could talk it out and look for a solution. I believe that the opinion of the players are as important as the opinion of Leadership and Staff. Please DM me on discord so we could work something out. Discord : Tice#3754

I'm just going to answer the punishment table issue.

The punishment table is just there to act as a guideline to deal with rule breakers. It is not disclosed to players or should not be disclosed to players to avoid this kind of issues. 
Not everything is black and whit and falls into one of the punisments we've set. That's why it is so hard to apply same punishment to two different players, because most likely reality is very different in each ocasion. 

Players should follow the rules they accept when they join the server and let staff deal with the punishment. Like it's been mentioned earlier, if a player finds his punishment to be unfair, he can apply on the forums and we will take a look at it. 

I hope this clarifies the punishment table issue.

-Saber

Could I know what you think about the idea I proposed, I would really like to know more about what the Leadership thinks about the situation and what we could do to change people when they get punished instead of them not caring.

We are working with Tommys on trying to find a solution to be as fair as possible dealing with punishments, but like I said, most of the times situations are completely different and therefore have to be dealt with differently.
[Image: 3vbQi.gif]
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#16
I agree with this sentiment. I appreciate what the Network Admins do behind the scenes, but I would like to see them be more active. I can only recall one interaction with network admins that wasn't disciplinary. When there's some sort of issue in the community, I feel they should be more active to know the full story or leave the decision to the moderators/admins who are active.
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#17
It is very rare that the NAs actually get involved in decisions regarding punishments. We work along side the creative staff in setting out punishment standards but we leave the moderating to the creative staff.
We appreciate that players feel like we’re not active enough because you don’t see us active on the servers and we’ll try to be more visible and approachable going forward.
With hindsight we maybe should have spent more time on the server but we felt like creative staff were more than capable of dealing with day to day issues, and that we only needed to get involved when things became a bigger issue. We’ll correct that in future.
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#18
Hello,
First off I would like to extend my gratitude to Staff and Network Admins for giving us a reasonable amount of discourse and to clarify what your vision is to run the server. Yes there is a lot of tension going on the server partly due to disagreement but a lot to deal with the fact we're all holed up in our homes spending hours upon hours on this server. This means that conflict is inevitable. I would be the first to say that its next to impossible to remain fair and just in punishments for conflicts. I would also agree that its not just the fault of staff that are responsible for causing drama and disagreements regarding punishments. I figured since I'm fairly active on the server and have seen both sides of the punishment issue I'd give my two cents. First, I don't think temp-bans are a solution to anything, they really have just seem to create more divisions and issues. Now I don't think getting rid of them would solve problems either,  but I think they should be dealt less frequently. Creative has always had some sort of toxic chat between players and shutting it down is simply impossible. My solution which still has its fault is as follows. I think issues among the server should be settled not by banning but by being told to take it out of chat and to PM's. If people want to continue their banter and it is getting to the point of being a problem on the server then it should be taken it out of the public image. The reality is that its the internet and banning someone from a server is not going to change an opinion. If it is taken to a PM then others are unlikely to join in, and it will be resolved themselves. Also, if someone does not like what is being said to them the /ignore command is there. And ultimately if someone is being toxic in chat, give them their warnings and all, but don't do a half-assed punishment where forgiveness is given after a sob story to Tommy or Rob. While that might sound ironic, it is what I truly believe. No punishment chart is going to change a guests mind about spamming the N-Word or putting swastikas on their plot.
As far as the Network Admins activity is concerned within creative I have a few things to say as well. While I appreciate your efforts to better our community and create a more friendly environment, I do think it is inherently flawed. You cannot teach an old dog new tricks, which applies to the internet one hundred million times over.  I think the moderation of creative should be left up to those who are within the server and have known all of us for years. In my opinion what would be ideal is if Network Admins stayed completely out of punishments and left it up to Staff such as Tommy, TCL, Teh, Matt, and other creative staff who have risen among the ranks along side all of us and have gained our respect. And that's not to say that we don't have respect for Networks Admins, but we don't know you as well and we just don't have the same level of trust placed in you. I think Network admins should have a more removed role and not deal with player issues. We have plenty of staff who are on all hours of the day, and I think it should be left up to them. 
I know I have written a lot and if you've made it this far I deeply appreciate it. I think we all can coexist without the need for continuing conflict. A deal should be made and both sides will have to give in on something.
Sincerely,
Wired
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#19
Just FYI to address the confusion, creative punishments are dealt with by creative staff and not NA.
We’re just trying to get some kind of consistency across the board to prevent one person being punished more harshly than another.
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#20
I'm going to add my 2 British pence here - However I'm going to keep it short and sweet. I tried, it didn't happen.
 
Let’s clarify the ranks - A structure chart will be coming soon.
 
Network Admin - To administrate the network, I.E WoK and its entirety.
Think of us as directors of a company; hidden in the background, not serving your food or cleaning the toilets. You should never ever see us. And when you do, you know shit has gone sideways. When was the last time you liaised with the owner/directors of a company?
We're here to steer WoK - Not the individual servers. We're here to grow WoK, not the individual servers (but technically as a by-product of growing WoK, it will grow the servers).
 
Examples:
Managing the infrastructure, ensuring it's up to date, and we're getting value for money. Which is why we've been constantly migrating servers all over the place.
Creating a social media team, and having the leader of the social media team run it. However, give the owner the tools necessary.
Switching donation system - Again value for money, less fees, more automation, consistency, fairness etc. etc.
Assist the Head Admins, and liaise with them directly should any problems occur - It's their duty to resolve. Likewise, if they have problems, they bring it up and we resolve.
Implementing voting system for free advertisement.
 
That is a tiny snippet of the stuff we're responsible for. Note how I left out running Creative and or Towny? They have a HA for it.
 
Head Admin
Responsible for running their server and growing it.
Basic technical skills, to edit plugins and diagnose errors.
Train Admins
As brief as it is, there's a ton of work that I'm not going to go into.
 
Admin
To administrate the staff members. Not the server.
Contradicting the last point, they are still responsible for minor plugin editing and diagnosing basic errors.
Ensure the staff is trained and doing their job - HA and Admin should not builders or players who "earnt" the rank through time.
Leadership - Comes with the role. You've got a team beneath you, this role requires people skills, management etc.
 
"minor plugin editing and diagnosing basic errors."
We're not asking the HAs or Admins to re-code Minecraft and take on Microsoft and Mojang. We're asking them to sometimes edit one single line. No seriously...that can be it.
 
You shouldn't need a full-blown mechanic (Dev/Creative Dev) to inflate your tyres, right? It's a basic problem that you should be expected to fix.
You wouldn't expect the CEO or maintenance engineer of a company to come down every 5 minutes to refill the chip fryer, right? ... Right?!
Mods
To moderate the server. Make sure it’s friendly for our guests, which people seem to be missing the point on.
Our audience is literal kids, 10-11-year olds. People are failing to grasp that parents don’t want their children to see the racist slurs, Nazi symbols drawn on the maps, f’ing and blinding, making derogatory remarks to someone’s mental health / capability.
To consistently, and fairly, implement the punishment chart.
 
Now that’s ranks out of the way. Next point. So much for keeping this short and sweet.
 
 Inconsistency on punishments
The network admins have copied over a punishment chart from the AOTBT days. It’s a template, it always has been…It’s never once been written in stone, and no one has ever been told “this is it, you can’t change it”.
 
We gave Creative and Towny a punishment chart. We told them to amend it to their servers; clearly there’s no PVP offences on a Creative server, and there’s no “poor builds” offences on a Survival server. You get the point – They have a template, they’re the ones who need to amend it.
 
From day 1 that I, and the other NA’s were put in charge, we’ve tried to push Creative for a punishment chart. We saw the unfairness, inequality, and how people were getting 101 different types of punishments for the same offence.
 
No seriously, from day 1 we’ve tried to implement this and was met with “GFTO of our server! Stop interfering!”.
No; we will never ever leave a server alone, who is being a toxic cesspit, being racist, making Swastikas, and cursing out guests that join.
And then the players complain that WoK is dead, despite them being the very cause…So we try to fix it and get greeted with “GTFO STOP INTERFERING”.
 
GRANTED those were the old days, and Creative has significantly improved – Credit where due.
 
It’s funny, because, initially we were told to GTFO, and now we’re being told we leave them alone to their own devices…Seeing a pattern here?
 
Finally,
The server implements the punishments, not NA. As above, we’re not here to run each server, we’re here to run WoK.
It’s not us that are punishing players inconsistently, despite there being a punishment chart, it’s the staff…Which we’ve talked about last night.
 
Whenever a player complains to us – We always bat it back to the server to deal with, no seriously. We don’t get involved. We don’t want to get involved; we shouldn’t have to get involved.
 
 
 
 
As above – The only time we should have to get involved is shit has gone so sideways, it’s really bad. Then that means the HA has failed, the Admin has failed, the Mod+ has failed, and every Mod has failed in the duty to prevent this coming all the way to us…To give it some kind of understandable context.
Granted, that’s not always possible; but we’ve yet to have a serious complaint that’s warranted us having to look it. At the moment, we’ve had the usual “I’m being picked on” – Something mods/admins can deal with.
Or “my builder app didn’t get accepted” – Again, not worth an NA to look at, which gets batted straight to the server admins.
 
Voice chat
Always going to be a problem quite frankly and there is little solution.
 
The problem with voice chat is there’s no logs, and people haven’t been recording offences. And unless you’re familiar with someone’s voice, it’s just “voice A said this, voice B said that”.
 
Quite frankly – If there’s a problem on voice, leave. If we get enough complaints about the user, we may have to revoke their voice permissions, but again that’s all based on hearsay and enough people could gang up on a person, creating an unfair punishment for someone who could be innocent the whole time.
 
 
Focused on Towny vs Creative
Towny runs itself. NA hasn’t had to get involved in months.
 
Stop giving us so much paperwork to deal with, in terms of bickering, punishments, implementing punishment charts, enforcing punishments, managing staff and player drama, and then…Just then, we might have enough time to visit Creative.
 
The more Creative gives us paperwork to do, the less time we can spend in game – Regardless of server.
 
Final note
If you want to be toxic – Keep it outside of WoK, otherwise we’ll have to get to the point where you’ll be perm muted inside of WoK…What other solutions do we have?
 
Staff want to keep talented builders (fine), and we want to get rid of the toxicity…Well, you don’t need chat/voice inside of WoK to do that.
 
Noted, that we have not been active inside Creative, we will change that.
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